I know a 25 year old Russian Lady in California who’s happily married to an American Man.
She just told me that she’s expecting her first child and that she and her husband are both very happy.
As she started sharing this with her friends she noticed two very different responses to her joyous news.
Her Russian girlfriends were universally ecstatic and filled with excitement.
Huge smiles with equally huge bright eyes greeted her declaration.
Some would openly weep with joy as hugs, kisses and many compliments were proudly spoken and dedicated to her.
And my own experience in Russia totally validates this.
Because when the announcement of an impending arrival is made there is an incredible emotional energy in the room and you can’t help but feel a deep appreciation for this all important celebration of life itself.
If you are ever able to witness it, you would understand just how close Russian women can be to each other.
Beautiful and nurturing to behold. It is a tight-knit and loving sisterhood that always makes me smile and gives me hope for humanity.
However, when the news of her pregnancy started making the rounds with the American Women she knows.. It generated a completely different reaction.
- I heard the news.. ARE YOU OK?!?!?!
- Oh my God?? WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO?!?!
- Are you SURE you are happy??
- Are you going to keep IT???
My newly pregnant friend said she felt like some tragedy had befallen her and these grim expressions of “concern” were no different then if someone in the family had just died.
She’s a sensitive young lady and this line of questioning was making her feel extremely uncomfortable.
Nasty little insecurities began to creep in about the health of her unborn child or about her ability to be a good mother.
Furthermore she was under the impression that these women were treating her like some poor unwed teenager instead of the responsible and mature young lady that she is. Perhaps it just wasn’t appropriate for a beautiful 25 year old to consciously have a baby with her husband and be happy about it.
I told her to relax and just realize that this was just another very unfortunate aspect of Feminism in the US.
I wanted to ask her a question.
“Were these American Women in their 20′s and 30′s?”
She was very surprised at my line of questioning but confirmed this to be true and asked why I wanted to know?
“It’s because many American women in this age bracket have real identity issues and are indoctrinated to shun children at all costs.”
“That terrible.” she said.
“Yes it is.” I answered.
She was shocked by this. And even as I tried hard not to sound too cynical there was no real way to sugar coat the truth of this.
This was supposed to be her happy moment and she probably didn’t need another serving of societal garbage heaped on what should have been her parade.
However as it turned out she said she was very grateful for the insight.
After a few more minutes we gave our parting well wishes and hung up the phone..
At that moment, I felt that as she retired for the evening she was probably going to hold her husband just a little bit more closely during the night.
Certainly she had a greater desire to protect a newly lit flame residing in her womb..
.. against the chill of a lifeless political wind that wished to extinguish it.
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Kek,
Yes, this is a tragically common response in NA these days, especially for younger women. I have heard the “Are you going to keep it” reply many times in recent years. If someone is excited about having a child, their friends (if they are real friends) should share the excitement with her. How they personally feel about children should be kept to themselves and away from the mother to be.
Gillian,
You are absolutely right about the wide age range in most fertility clinics these days. Some medical professionals are studying the trend to try to understand why so many couples are having difficulty in conceiving these days. I certainly wish you the best when you decide to become a mother.
Generally speaking, it is clear that the move away from traditional family values has had a terrible effect on our culture. Is this completely the fault of the feminist movement? Maybe not, but surely that is the largest visible component.
We are living in time where right is wrong and wrong is right at every turn. It is completely acceptable for gay couples to get preferential treatment ahead of straight couples in adoption and surrogate placements. It is completely acceptable for biological mothers deeply involved with drugs and alcohol to get preferential consideration in custody situations even if the biological father has no such substance abuse issues. We have even now come to the point of defining a non-biological parent as “psychological parents” and giving them preference over a biological parent in custody cases.
The sad news is that it will get worse. This slide into moral decay has really only just begun. Each day brings new judgments and rulings from ultra-liberal courts throughout NA which further divide justice from common sense. Whatever your background or beliefs, there is no denying the troubled state of affairs we find ourselves in.
To all of the young women here that believe in their femininity and value as a woman, I applaud you for your choices. Be the person that you were designed to be and enjoy womanhood for all of its glory.
Guys; pay attention to women that choose to be women, rather than this current messed up shadow of what a real woman is supposed to be.
I don’t think it’s as bad as all that. Almost every woman, regardless of nationality is dying to have a child…or two. …even if they outwardly try to convince themselves otherwise. (Hence, not being able to fool themselves anymore, and trying to rush and make it happen at the 11th hour, in their near menopausal 40′s.)
Children and women having them…it’s in their biological wiring.
It is also in their biological wiring to be more hesitant to get pregnancy the less comfortable they feel with either personal or social circumstances. 9 times out of 10 a girl will be all smiles to give birth, if she feels well taken care of and trusting of her man. American men are NOT innocent in the current course of male/female relations (it’s not all feminist women’s fault). There are a plethora of sad bastards that take their values from James Bond movies and MTV videos.
Enough said.
I think she must have really bad NA friends. I would definitely weep with joy if I found out any of my friends were pregnant, and I’m only 20! Also, not all women at fertility clinics are 40. I was told by doctors that having children will be a difficult road for me, so I may be in that lineup with those women! I definitely understand your point, but I am politely asking you not to generalize. Some women just have a harder time having kids than others, and require help.
That said, I don’t understand why they would be so down on her pregnancy. If she is married and their relationship is stable, I don’t see any reason for concern. Some people are just jealous of other people’s happiness and stability.
I’m 26 and have a lot of friends and family who are starting their families right now; I have honestly never heard of this happening. She needs to find some new friends. Now, I’m from a fairly traditional family and for that matter region of the US, but the response to her good news is crazy. She should be happy, and I think her confused girlfriends will realize that.
50 million D.O.A.’s and counting
I sometimes think that the women who look at pregnancy as a tragedy are confused by, and jealous of, one simple thing:
A pregnant woman is absolutely, breath-takingly beautiful to a lot of men. I don’t mean in terms of how much she looks like a super-model, but just in terms of her natural femininity and the newly-kindled maternal attitudes that come to the fore. I realize a lot of men would disagree with me, but it men are honest with themselves and just simply look and reflect a little bit, they would be shocked to find that I am speaking the truth.
The same is true for the crueler voices of American women who decry pregnancy and motherhood. Deep down, they know that their pregnant sister has far surpassed them in terms of beauty and even power of a sort, inside and out. It scares them, as it flies in the face of every tenet they believe as to what a truly feminine woman looks like.
Take a good, long look ladies. This is one aspect of femininity that you cannot overpower with all of your rhetoric and mean-spirited countenances. Your pregnant sister is more appealling, more beautiful, and more of a woman than you ever will be.
“. This is one aspect of femininity that you cannot overpower with all of your rhetoric and mean-spirited countenances. Your pregnant sister is more appealling, more beautiful, and more of a woman than you ever will be”
Wow, that’s pretty unfair to women who can’t get pregnant.
I’m sorry if I misunderstand you here, Katarina, but I don’t see anything in Curiepoint’s comments which addresses women who can’t get pregnant. It seems clear to me that Curiepoint has directed the statement at women who belittle pregnancy and treat femininity as some sort of unfortunate disease to be hidden from the light of day.
“This is one aspect of femininity that you cannot overpower with all of your rhetoric and mean-spirited countenances.”
That sure looks to me like it is focused specifically at the feminist mentality and anti-family blowhards who decry motherhood.
I was once at a dance and noticed a girl there. She was obviously pregnant by the look of her sizable tummy. Several weeks passed, at the same dance, I did she her congregating with her friends. It seemed she had had a miscarriage, but instead of sadness, there was a burst of cheer. Her friends were cheerful and congratulating her.
It goes to show how pervasive feminist propaganda is. They certainly control the media outlets. You listen to songs, watch tv shows. The propaganda, message, is all there. Its subtle, but for those who observe keenly, it is fairly clear.
At any rate, within several decades, the demographic shift will be minorities becoming the majority. Why? Because minorities, Hispanics, Asians, still hold true to family values and they definitely are propagating their genes.
-M
The woman in the photo is most definitely a pretty lady made even more so by her pregnancy. There is no more feminine woman than one who is going to give birth to a child soon.
Taras
So true. Few sights for our eye to behold are as wonderful as a woman with child. The last few weeks of the term condition her for the nurturing to come. Photos like the one above exemplify femininity at it finest.
I’ve very rarely seen women who were not supportive of a pregnancy, and I don’t know anyone who has had an experience like this when they were in a committed relationship. It seems to me that the women who expressed concerns probably have their own issues to work out, and don’t really understand what it means to bring someone into the world. Those few times when I did hear concern from people it was when the girl was in her teens and had no means of support.
Also I have never seen a miscarriage/abortion met with cheer as manoah mentioned.
I just saw this article in the Washington Post which confirms that more women in the US then ever in their 40′s are completely childless.
Here’s a quote..
“Nearly one in five American women in her early 40s is childless, according to a report that shows a striking increase in women who don’t have biological children. The trend was much less common in the 1970s, when one in 10 women did not have children by 40 to 44, the age bracket researchers use to designate the end of childbearing years.”
Unfortunately this article is also one of the most laughable pieces of Feminist Propaganda I’ve ever seen.
It only confirms what my post is saying because it almost CELEBRATES the fact that more American women are childless as if this is some great accomplishment.
This article is nothing but a HIT PIECE against women and children.
It completely mirrors what the American Women in my post above were saying to my pregnant Russian friend.
When our media pumps this garbage out it’s no wonder American women are so confused.
Take a look at this quote as well.
“The report, released Friday by the Pew Research Center, cites social and cultural shifts behind the change, including LESS PRESSURE to have children, better contraceptive measures and expanded job opportunities for women.”
The lies get bigger with this next quote..
“Childless women are as happy as women who had children at typical ages, said Amy Pienta, a researcher at the University of Michigan who coauthored a study on the subject. “They are not any more depressed; their psychological well-being is just as high,” she said.”
I call BS on this one.. this comment actually means that American Women are only encouraged to lead more narcissistic lives and that ultimately leads to profound unhappiness and emptiness for them.
I truly feel sorry for American Women.. and I’m not trying to be condescending here. I feel sorry for them because of the toxic messages and attitudes they are fed everyday which sabotage their identity and happiness as females.
In Russia a woman who becomes a mother is CELEBRATED.
She is held in high esteem and Russian society gives her more status and recognition then with women who do not have children.
Compounding this is the fact that it’s very difficult for Russian Women to even find a good man let alone a good father to her kids. So in light of this believe me when I say this.
ALL Russian Women want to become mothers.
And they are damn proud of this fact to.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/25/AR2010062500188.html
kyle,
In a recent event which I witnessed here in the lower mainland of British Columbia, about a dozen women in a bar were having a party when one of them found out in a doctor’s visit that she was NOT pregnant, after thinking that she was. The woman looked to be late 20s or more likely early 30s, married and working in downtown Vancouver. What are the possibilities? Was she worried that she was pregnant by someone other than her husband? Infidelity is commonplace now. Did she have too many children already? I didn’t overhear anything like that. What I did hear was some of the other women toasting her continued freedom from the prison of motherhood.
Let’s face it; tens of thousands of NA women are proud of the fact that they don’t “have to be” mothers. I put the majority of those women and anyone who supports that sort of feminazi b.s. into one of two categories; idiots and *ss h*l*s.
Our most basic instinctive calling on this planet is to reproduce. Denying that fact is ignorant and irresponsible.
Any woman who proudly wears the badge “mother” is a better member of our society than those who would steal the same dream from others. The feminist agenda is to force feed their lies on anyone who will listen and hopefully convert normal thinking women to their version of reality. If they don’t want to have kids, let them all go out in a desert and wander around for eternity. But they should keep their anti-male, anti-free thinking, anti-social crap to themselves. They offer nothing positive to the general population and serve no master but their own bloated egos.
Well, I don’t mean to play devil’s advocate, but from what I have heard, Russia boasts the highest rate of abortions per child-bearing woman in the world (almost 3 million/year within 150,000,000 citizens), right? I realize that socio-economic concerns come into play here…but it doesn’t seem as rosy as this article portrays. Clearly, it is not always a celebration when a Russian woman becomes pregnant, it seems? I might add the U.S boasts around a million abortions per year while we have twice as many citizens. Do you have any thoughts about this?
Hi Anna,
I’m glad you brought this up because I was going to mention this fact as well.
You are right. Russia has some of the highest abortion rates in the world and this is a direct result of economic pressure in an often unforgiving environment.
However here’s the main point that I’m trying to emphasize.
There is a huge difference between a woman who wants to have a baby and one that is ready for an abortion. Any Russian woman who is prepared to abort her pregnancy typically doesn’t proudly announce it to the world.
It’s a huge secret and often a shameful one at that. And I believe it’s rightfully regarded as the tragedy that it is.
THIS is the time when you would most likely hear a fellow Russian Woman saying something like “Oh my God are you OK?”
This is the opposite of my story above where it seems by default that a pregnant woman in her mid 20′s in the US would hear something more disparaging.
Also remember this.. there is no real social safety net like welfare in Russia. Unfortunately some of the highest abortion rates in the world is also accompanied by some of the highest numbers of orphans too.
And these tragic figures as you can imagine primarily exist at the lowest strata of Russia society. Where survival can be a real issue on a day to day basis.
All I can say is this.. There is a time to celebrate life and their is a time to mourn death.
Understanding the difference is a pretty key indicator of the overall state of our society and especially for AW who often seem confused about the real meaning of either.
35 years ago when my oldest brother was conceived out of wed lock and my mom discovered she was pregnant, she broke down in tears of anguish. Had abortion been legal at the time she would have most likely terminated the pregnancy, my parents wouldn’t have married and my brothers and I wouldn’t be alive. After my brother was born she dropped out of college but was still defiant about returning to finish her education and pursue a career. She would envy her childless friends who went on to conquer the world and seemed to have it all. This spirit persisted through the first, second and third child but by the forth boy in four years she realized all of her options were gone and she was going to be a full time mom. At the time she felt her dreams were over but looking back she says her days in the country raising babies were some of the best days of her life and I for one am grateful she made the right choice.
Very interesting and well written as for me.
And, our women too act in same way as our Russian sisters when baby will come, so I’m told, I do not yet have a little 1 !
Sincerely,
Marina.
U, K, RRRRRRRRRRR.
All you have to do is look at Western (and Russian) fertility rates to know this is true. Yes, there are still many people with traditional views about children and family, but those numbers are way below what was once considered the norm. Our culture has been changing since the 60s, and reduced fertility and delayed childbirth are one of the results. To many young women who don’t feel that they’ve fully “lived” life yet, a pregnancy can feel like a death sentence.
Well as an American woman I congragulate her. I will admit society is messed up and I even go as far to say the world is. I live in the rural areas and will not say it is not immune (it is just not on a large scale). Things I have been told about California economicaly, how people there think and act ect just shocked me. I have even been told that people have leaft California to live in Colorado.
GL: Long Time
How are things going with you in Siberia?
Hope all is well.
Even when an American woman does decide to keep the kid, she gets a stranger to take care of the kid when he’s about a month old so she can go back to her demanding career. I see that shit at work all the time, and it makes me sick. And then these clueless women actually ask me why I can’t find a woman I want to marry. :angry:
I agree…I’m sick of western feminists shoving their agenda down our throats. I’ve been dating for five years now (since I got divorced from my ex-feminist woman) and I find i do much better when I act like a man – take the lead, be the alpha, etc. than when I was the pussy whipped wimp. American feminism will never trump basic human response; the man was meant to be the provider and protector and the woman was meant to be the nurturer and the family glue.
I’m engaged to a beautiful Ukrainian girl who knows the diffeence between men and women. I am not a chauvanist; she is educated,she will have her own life (including working – if that is what she chooses to do) and we discuss everything about our future together. But at the end of the day I will remain the man and she will remain the woman.
From studies in 2008 abortion is decreasing in America but childless women are increasing. Of course this does not mean better behaviour (maybe for some). I should also point out Russia is or has experienced low birthrates like some other countries.
Ahhhh!??!!
OBAMA new power to shut down INTERNET in usa bill!!
In reply to Anokel
Actualy it is alarming how many countries are heading or in this direction. They would not have the power to control the internet in other countries. But they most likely would have control over the American internet and could prevent other countries from having access to American based sites or prevent Americans from seeing sites from other countries. They could also censor anything critical of them if they wanted to. I am not a conspiracy theorist but it is easy to see how this can be abused.
Hey guys,
I need some people to talk to because everyone in my family is so negative. I try to have any meaningful discussion with my parents my dad will start yelling and my mom will start making excuses.
Anyway, I was talking to my brother today when I was in his truck with him saying it would be awesome to colonize other planets and then he’s like well I don’t think its going to happen because the worlds going to get destroyed by then. Talking about God ending the world. Yeah sure God is going to end it one day, but haven’t people always thought that the world is going to end this way or that way???? Man, my brother couldn’t even think that it was cool to go to another planet. NO he has to be negative.
Then he said something that America is almost all owned by China now, you know because almost everything is made in China these days. Then I said well I’m going to move out of the usa and go to Russia. Then he was like there’s nothing in Russia, it’s a poverty strickin country why would you want to go there. Then he said why do you think everyone wants to come to America.
He’s never been outside the usa he doesn’t even know. I mean there are lots of countries with different types of lifestyles and lvls of development. People can still live FREE in other countries even if its not a Democracy right?
A question I do have though is about religion in Russia. Do they have the freedom to believe whatever the want? I mean if I’m a Christian can I go and talk to them about God or is it banned?
It’s like everyone in my area, family don’t have any hope for this world or they don’t care. But I care, I have hope, even if it’s still going to get destroyed one day. I still believe in hope for a good life.
Anyone want to comment?
Thanks for listening!
People have also told me that if I want to buy land in Russia I can only just rent it from the govt. They’ve also keep telling me that Russian women only want to come to America.
Can anyone tell me that there are actually still good positive people in the world?? Or am I just in the wrong place?
With regards to religion in other parts of the world, here is at least one other point of view for your consideration.
While most of Europe and the FSU are religiously open, in that there are many churches around, you might find very little of the variety you see here in NA. The “church on every corner” and the “denomination of the month” facilities we enjoy is not prevalent over there from all I have heard and read. Catholic, Russian Orthodox, and some of the very old traditional religions are well represented but you might need to search a bit for modern versions of Lutheran or Methodist churches, with the evangelical and reform churches being nearly non-existent in many places.
As far as living “free” in other countries, even though they are not democracies, it depends entirely on what you consider freedom to be. I have lived in a few countries for a short time each and found the sort of freedoms we know and take for granted in NA to be greatly lacking in places like Mexico, Costa Rica, Dominican Republic, Italy or the UK. It is unrealistic to compare the relative freedoms of other countries to those we have known all of our lives here. The governments are different, their history is different and their culture is different. Why would we think that the basic individual liberties might be similar?
The most effective thing you can do for yourself and the fairest thing you can do for the locals wherever you go is to make your very best effort to fully assimilate into their culture rather than to try carrying your own around with you everywhere you go. I think it insults them to expect them to cater to your background and desires.
If the thing about buying land in Russia verses leasing it from the government is true, remember that it is common in much of the world that you never actually “own” the land you’ve purchased. By the way it is the same in Hawaii and some other parts of the US and Canada. The only difference (really) in NA is that we are allowed a few more of those freedoms when it comes to land ownership. By means of simple acts like Imminent Domain and other more subtle laws, people in NA can also have their land taken away with little or no compensation. I wouldn’t let that be a deal breaker on living in any part of the world, or else you might as well never think about leaving. As an immigrant in most countries you might need to have a naturally born citizen as a co-owner for property or business because the rest of the world doesn’t pussy-foot around with their immigration laws the way we do here. Their rules are much clearer and much less flexible.
Jason,
While the thought of colonizing other planets sounds wonderfully romantic in a sci-fi sort of way, I pretty much agree with what your brother says. Whether you believe it is by God’s design or by mere chance, it is pretty hard to believe that we wouldn’t destroy our own planet long before having the insight to start moving away from it. As a people we have shown throughout time that our ability to think globally is little more than a pipe dream, and no single nation is going to spend the money on leaving Earth as a means of reaching out to the universe. Speaking strictly as a person of faith, the idea lacks Biblical support. From a Christian perspective, our destiny as a people is written and to fully believe in any of it would naturally require believing in all of it. We are rushing head on into ending our world with the only major barricade being that part about ‘the end coming once the whole world has been exposed to the Word of God’. (by the way, not all theologians agree on that topic, but so it is with much of the Christian faith)
Your brother isn’t too far off about the US being ‘owned’ by China, either but not so much because of the amount of goods we purchase from that country but because we have leveraged our debt to the Chinese government to the tune of hundreds of billions of dollars. Leveraging debt is a solid business practice ONLY when you have the perceivable likelihood of being able to buy back that debt. Since the US is building unsecured debt in billions per day, it is unsustainable and whenever China calls the note, we are effectively screwed blue and tattooed. (in other words, bankrupt) The countries that are mining and holding the most gold will be dictating the world economy in the not too distant future. As a major world power, I believe China is leading the rest in gold production at this time. Some countries are producing more raw gold per capita or per dollar invested in their infrastructure, but China is doing it right. They are a stable government at this point and they are not selling the gold anywhere near as fast as other gold producing countries. What’s more, the World Bank, the G20 and EU are trying very hard to reduce the importance and possibly even eliminate the gold standard from our global economy. When that happens, we might as well all start printing our own money because it will have no value what-so-ever. But, again, that is a Biblical certainty. The cashless society is a precursor to the end of the world.
A strong suggestion for you, in my humble opinion, would be to spend as much of your time as you can defining who you are and what you stand for. The time is coming when you won’t be able to speak freely about your spiritual beliefs, your political beliefs or your personal beliefs without fear of imprisonment or execution, and it won’t matter what country you call home. Until then it would be helpful for you to make your choices well informed and with conviction, then live with whatever comes your way.
i disagree with you on adoption and sexual orientation. The sexual orientation of the couple shouldn’t matter. The character of the parent[s] matters first.
if all things are equal . . . . why shouldn’t a straight couple have the same chance at adoption?
what’s more, the CHARACTER of the parent(s) is exactly what concerns me most . . . . just like the feminist agenda, the homosexual agenda is about self serving, isolationist, anti-Judeo-Christian values and that, in and of itself, is a huge character flaw in my opinion which does not offer the best available environment for raising well adjusted children.
Richard- you’re making assumptions based on what you did and didn’t hear at a bar.
To be for something doesn’t mean one is against something.
I am all for women being able to choose to have children or not.I also look forward to having my own children.
The difference lies in society. America is a country of extremes. Women in the past were taught that they couldn’t have their cake and eat it too. Either find a husband, get married and have children or oblivion. Now women are being taught to put their education and career first. Getting pregnant means the end of your life which is ridiculous. Women are also being taught to take on traditional masculine traits in order to be taken seriously which is also ridiculous.I’m from a different culture but I feel the pressure acutely everyday. To pay attention to one’s appearance is not the trait of a strong woman in America which is really really ridiculous.Deciding to stay home and raise your children = giving up your career which is ridiculous. There’s always an either/ or atmosphere which is really suffocating.
Other cultures- like mine- teach girls that they are able to get an education, find love, get married, have children,a career and take care of themselves while being feminine. Taking care of your looks= you love yourself.
It comes from our mothers and fathers. There is a never a question of get married or go to school.There are always choices. The men don’t hold the women back, if the women are happy then everyone is happy.
Anyone who can’t accept us as we are is not worthy of our time and energy.
Perhaps you should consider your impact on the women in your life as well as put yourself in a woman’s shoes. If society told you that your only choice was to find a wife, stay home and everything else wasn’t respectable how would you feel.If following your dream meant social exile,being tortured psychologically and made to feel worthless everyday what would you do? Then imagine how you would feel once your cage disappeared. I’m from a different culture but I imagine that I would make damn sure the cage is never rebuilt. I would also punish everyone who tried to put me back.
If following your dream meant social exile,being tortured psychologically and made to feel worthless everyday what would you do? Then imagine how you would feel once your cage disappeared. I’m from a different culture but I imagine that I would make damn sure the cage is never rebuilt. I would also punish everyone who tried to put me back.
That is precisely what is being done to men here, it’s what I’ve been subjected to from all sides along with two generations of other American boys and men. Women have a lot to do with that here in Amerika just as men do. I have on more than one occasion punished those who done that to me, and I am doing it today through one of the best methods imaginable, namely shunning those who don’t even bother to learn my name, let alone see me as a person instead of just another “oppressor white male.” If someone is going to treat me as less than nothing, I will return the favor. I laugh at what people call oppression, they would sing a very different tune if they survived the Ukrainian Holodomor watching people starve to death right in front of them and they could do nothing to prevent it. This is why so many men are as angry and dysfunctional as they are, why many women are as equally dysfunctional and angry as well. The truth is, the Zionists, feminists and other Satanic elitists here have done a bang up job turning men and women against each other here in Amerika. Ultimately men reflect the women around them just as much as the reverse, the mirror does indeed have two faces.
Taras
Very well put, Taras.
Men like us who have been treated like “evil masterminds trying to squelch the dreams of all women we encounter” are now content to ignore such women as much as possible, even though those women are steadily growing in numbers here. It is certainly easier to shun them completely than to waste any time or energy trying to be around them socially.
Also, the idea of true “oppression” coming from disheartened NA housewives would be completely laughable if it weren’t for the fact that they actually believe they are oppressed.
If it weren’t so horrifying, I could forward a recent clip of a teenage girl being stoned to death for refusing to marry the man that her parents arranged for her. I wonder if the women who were forced to watch that execution as a “lesson of obedience” would consider NA women oppressed.
I really like the comment about the mirror’s two faces.
anyways – all you men out there who admire Russian women -treat all women you meet in NA like a precious thing- without any conditions,condescension and always be respectful. Speaking from personal experience- Caucasian NA men tend to be demanding,insulting, cold and judgmental.Some even mistake the insulting part for flirting. My friend told me to never date a white guy from NA because they don’t know how to treat women.Overtime though they learn how to treat a woman.I’m 25, educated and in very good shape and I’ve found a wonderful man. He’s in his forties but compared to the men closer to my age, he’s wonderful.To the point that I don’t mind cooking and cleaning and taking care of him because he lets me know how wonderful and precious I am to him.I want to have his children, am more than willing to stay home to take care of them, stay in good shape, wear sexy outfits and etc. So perhaps you men should ask if it’s you?
I don’t put myself in women’s shoes. They are the most uncomfortable damn things ever created (don’t ask how I know…I just know).
You can’t have your cake and eat it too. The notion that everything and everyone and every situation is under one’s command is ridiculous, and that is true for men as well as women.
You make a valid point regarding being accepted in toto. Once again, that should be true for men as well as women, but we all know that this is not the case. Women love to preach about the “thousands of years of oppression” or whatever, but totally ignore the basic fact that this has nothing whatever to do with anyone alive today. Most men are decent, albeit flawed, creatures. You speak of the expectations placed upon women Kate, but you say nothing of the reverse expectations placed upon men. We are everlastingly the potential rapist, spouse and child abusers, the drunkards, and the portion of our society that are too stupid or lazy to look after a home. For the greatest majority, these are not true. Yet, listen to a North American woman when she gets together with her peers, and it becomes an endless, psychotic bitch-fest about how downtrodden they are. If the expectations that you somehow perceive as being unfairly placed upon you are intolerable, try living with the default posture of always being a brutish thug who unfailingly treats the woman in his life poorly.
With regards to our adoration of Russian women over NA women…Russian women, it is believed, actually value a good man. They make themselves into something that is actually appealling to a man. Treating NA women as precious things? Sorry, to be loved one must first prove that they are lovable. In this case, Russian women have American women beat all hollow. They know this fact instinctively, and thus they show their value to a man without his having to beg, or feel dirty for voicing his preferences. American women think that any attention they deign to give a pathetic male is a huge favor and he should consider himself a very fortunate troglodyte that she is electing to speak with him. Who the hell wants to be with someone who is so full of snark, so full of wanting to compete, so full of contempt?
No one, except the manginas.
kate,
To begin with, I don’t recall the last time I was in a bar and I do not make assumptions because I don’t need to based on life experience. Furthermore, I don’t take my life views from drunks and idiots which is one of the biggest reasons for my utter disappointment in NA women. It is the women in my country who are “live for the moment” booze and drug hounds, spewing their vile points of view about modern society. The men I associate with respect “real” women. Unfortunately, locating those real women in NA has become a somewhat daunting task. The arrogance and vulgarity of the average NA woman is repulsive to men of character. Today’s NA woman marches to the call of an entitlement mentality. Add to that their constant cry of being victims of daily life and you can sum up their pitiful existence with a redundant yawn.
Yes, America is a country of extremes and the one we are living with now is where women are demanding everything and offering nothing in return. In our typical NA way, the women see themselves as enslaved by hundreds of years of oppression (most of which never existed) and now chant about “equal rights” without the slightest desire for equality. It is all or nothing for today’s woman.
When you suggest that we men treat ALL women with respect, you fail to realize that respect is earned in this world. It isn’t a party favor that you pass around everywhere you go. When a woman carries herself with dignity and maturity, I offer my respect. If that respect is abused it is withdrawn.
You make so many good points that it is sad how much of what you say is laced between your own assumptions. I do not intend to detract from the life experience you may have had, but when you speak of the history of gender relations to someone more than twice your age, please remember that the things you have read about in formulating your views, are the things that I have lived first hand. So while I can appreciate your enthusiasm and respect your point of view, I can also tell you where theory departs from reality.
North American society did not force my mother or my grandmothers into servitude. Those women made choices far beyond the selfishness we see today. My mother got her business degree in 1937. She worked as an accountant for several years before deciding to marry and have children. When I started grade 6, she went to work as a dietician for a county hospital where she continued until retirement. Last month she died, without regrets, just short of her 93rd birthday.
I have watched women of character anchor their families and still have careers. I have seen strong women, the real kind, throughout my life. The women I watched in my youth never bitched about what they didn’t have because they were too thankful for what they DID have. They had loving families, they had safe homes, they had food on the table and most of all they had dignity.
Today’s NA woman calls herself strong because she can drink and swear and sleep around as often as she wants. She calls any men doing the same thing pigs. She taunts her strength as being able to date younger men while living off an ex-husband’s income but would have a successful older man jailed for the thought of dating young women. There is NO strength in modern NA women. There is little more than illusion. They live the very lie that was forced upon them by the femenists of the 60s and 70s.
If I met a truly strong woman today I would throw rose petals at her feet. Strength isn’t about what you can take from society; it is about what you can add to it. If you are a woman of character, which only time will tell, then it is certain that one day you will know what I mean.
I think there is something important in your closing line, “I would also punish everyone who tried to put me back.” While you have made some great points about the differences in your culture, you finish sounding exactly like the women here. There is an old song lyric that goes, “often times we live our life in chains, and we never even know we have the key”. If your goals change down the road, as they almost surely will, don’t seek to punish anyone who helped you to reach the previous ones. They were probably just respecting your point of view at the time.
Excellently put!
Hi, RW!
Thanks for the reply! That is so very sad about the abortion problem in Russia (and around the world), at least in my opinion. Growing up in the States, my family was involved with centers that helped mothers who lacked support, either financially and/or socially so that they could have and support their child rather than have an abortion. Hopefully such places will start to appear in Russia.
In any event, your Russian friend should be very happy and I wish her the best. Not all American women feel the way her friends do. Perhaps it is just where I’m from (the Midwest), but all my friends who are mostly in their twenties can’t wait to have children and have already picked out baby names! In fact, most women who I’ve come in contact with, either through work or school, go nuts when they see a baby! ;p I can only think of a few exceptions, and they are quite young and I suspect they’ll grow out of it! I guess my point is, I think she should definitely find friends who support her–we are out here!
Love,
Anna M.
I feel like this life is insane, or at least right now it’s driving me crazy.
Nobody know’s what it’s like to be me, my parents don’t understand me and neither do my brothers. Nor have they ever taken any real time to get to know me. But I have tried to get to know them, but they wanted to spend more time doing their own thing with their own friends or whatever.
You know I don’t know what happened to me how or when it happened because I don’t remember exactly. All I know is that I’m emotionaly unstable, I don’t have a job and some crazy things happened in my life I can’t explain and when I try to tell anyone about it they think I’m crazy and that, that stuff can’t happen because it’s impossible.
Anyway, at some point I think I had a breaking point because I couldn’t or didn’t know how to deal with all the garbage I was taking from people every where in my life. From home from school, from work.
Then I got into pornography and I was so addicted that’s all I wanted to do and all I thought about was sex all the time. I’m still addicted but I’m not looking at porn anymore. There’s no one to help me to do it either, no human anyway. The only thing people have done is told me not to do it. That’s it, well you know what sometimes that just isn’t enough for some one to quit an addiction that they have. Not to mention my family and isn’t qualified to help me with my addiction. Not to also mention that everyone at worship who I have asked for help has their own life and can’t help me all the time. Not to mention that I where I worship is nearly an hour a way and that people don’t want to drive an hour away out of the city to come visit me. In fact no one from worship has done that at least from the congregation Im at now.
But anyway, I was addicted to porn no job, playing video games all day and then my dad yelling at me you need to do something with your life all the time. But really actually yelling. But he was always like that, he would yell at me for stupid things that didn’t matter even when I was actually on the right track doing the right things in my life.
So anyway, to make a long story short I ran away to the military thinking that that was going to solve my problem. Did it? NO IT DIDNT it made everything worse like a billion million infinite times worse.
NO one took the time to call me, no one send me letters, except for the occasional letter from my mom. I got a couple letters from people I knew only once and one thing from people at worship only once and that was about it. I would call people like my family and brothers and people from worship and tell them everything that was going on with me but no one would take the time to call me. I couldn’t stand reading my moms letters because there were so boring and blah because she doesn’t do anything interesting with her life.
It really made me upset when I was in bootcamp and I saw some people get letters every day and I’m like how lucky they are because out of like the 10-15 letters I sent I only got like3-4 the whole time in bootcamp. It made me want to cry. Not to mention no one even came to my graduation.
I knew though as soon as I joined I had made a mistake but I didn’t know how to get out. There wasn’t anyone that was going to help me get out. So I ran away from the military. I ran away 3 times. The final time I was away for over 2 years and I was eventually able to get out with out any major penalties like going to prison. I just got a dishonorable discharge or whatever it’s called.
So now everyone thinks I’m a failure, my dad doesn’t really want to talk to me. My brothers don’t care. I try to spend as much time around people at worship because thats the only place I have people near my own age that I can get to know without putting myself in a stressful situation like a job that I’m not sure if I can even hold down right now anyway.
That’s why I feel so crazy right now. I feel not normal or anything. I’m stressed.
It’s so strange to me because we call ourselves Christians and we don’t even treat each other right and then I’ve seen other people who aren’t Christians treat people the way their suppose to be treated. Then I’m like, what is going on here? This doesn’t make any sense to me!!!!!!
It’s funny weird because my parents teach me about being a Christian and then when I’m growing up all I want with all my heart is to have a gorgeous good woman and every time I had the opportunity to meet one around my age at another congregation my parents would never go back that often to them or very rarely. SO it KILLED ME INSIDE EVERY TIME THEY DID THIS. They don’t even know how I feel and when I try to talk to them I either get exploding yelling dad or crying emotional worrying mom. they would never go back as much as I bugged them.
So now I’m sitting here in the country living with my parents writing this message.
I keep telling myself I’m going to leave but where am I going to go, I’ve even packed my bags and things. It would take me like 3-4 hours just to walk to town and like 5 hours just to walk to my great uncles house. At least he will talk to me and have meaningful conversations with me unlike my parents or brothers.
I have all these things I want to do and great ideas about having my own business n stuff but I just don’t know anymore.
Maybe you should make a friend. =)
) But do something. Find someone. Just be happy.
I know I sound like I’m making fun of you here but I promise you I’m not. Make one.
Maybe, I don’t know, maybe you’ll have to travel the world to find where you truly belong. And maybe you’ll travel the whole wide world only to find out that where you truly belong is right where you started- at home.
But I think maybe you need to do something big with your life. (As if entering the military was something big, right?
I hope you’re not some freak that just types thing like this up for fun, because my heart does go out for you.
Good luck, I hope. =)
sorry, i meant *wasn’t
I think the guys on the board already flat out advised this but I think you will feel better about yourself once you got some independence. Steps such as getting yourself to a point where you live by yoursef and are able to move about on your own(that may mean driving or useing public transportation depending on where you live). I think while this does not quickly fix finding a girl you will start to feel better for yourself. Maybe Russia is for you or maybe some other place. Who knows. But when you get you some independence you can figure that out for yourself. Maybe work on getting the skills and requirements for jobs that require you for to go overseas or whatever job you desire and feel is reliable.
Thank you, Richard.
I just get tired of hearing the equivalent of”
“You men have poor relationships. That’s because you don’t worship women enough. Maybe it’s all your fault”.
I will be the first to admit that some responsibility falls to me for relationship failure…but I sure as hell do not believe it’s all on me.
Jason,
You should speak to your doctor about your feelings, perhaps make an appointment with a psychiatrist.
There was once a guy here called Luke Skywalker. He started off okay, but as time progressed became increasingly demented. He used to sound a little bit like you in thr beginning.
To Hero, Taras, Wolverine, and any of the other sensible ppl who are still around…
Is it just me, or has this blog – like so many other Mens Sies before it – become dominated by a bunch of nagging women on the one hand; and a gang of religious nuts on the other?
Btw GL, I asked how you were doing.
So much for late night reading. Since I am not a nagging woman, I must be a religious nut!!! Socon, who are you to be defining sensible,anyway? Though I strongly disagree with much of what is said here, I understand that I am probably wrong in many instances, and, if not, it is wise to be courteous and respectful of others’ opinions. 50 years of living has allowed me to see that people are not so much ideological as they are selfish. Few people are educated enough anymore to understand belief systems, and worldviews. It takes time and effort that most are not willing to expend. Whether it was directed at me or not, I resent your criticism of other posters at this site. I deeply appreciate the fact that they are all willing to take a few minutes to express their opinions. I have learned a great deal here.
Sorry socon.. didn’t mean to skip you like that. I appreciate you asking and I’m doing great since this blog allows me to do what I love. Hope all is well with you as well.
Just tune them out… lol. Giving them any kind of attention only encourages them…
I”m a mod on a men’s rights forum. The harpies come, do some insulting and shrieking, and either we’re so mean to them that they run, or we just ignore them completely, and they leave… Very few women stay on that site for more than a few days…
noun, plural -pies.
1. Classical Mythology . a ravenous, filthy monster having a woman’s head and a bird’s body.
2. ( lowercase ) a scolding, nagging, bad-tempered woman; shrew.
3. ( lowercase ) a greedy, predatory person.
Since I had no idea what a “harpy” was, I thought other readers and posters might be interested in the definition. I have yet to read comments from any woman at this site that would lead me to classify her as a “harpy”, though, I am sure, others would disagree.
I do wish more women from Russia and Eastern Europe would participate in discussions here. There’s nothing like hearing it straight from “the horse’s mouth” as they say.
GL: No problemo
Wolve: Good to hear from you. What forum is that?
http://www.mens-rights.net/forum
Luke skywalker was a member there as well. Managed to get himself banned….
Would that be Chris Key’s place?
In reply to socon
yep
Jason,
You should make a plan before you make any haste decisions about your life and direction you want to take. Everyone must decide for themselves on how to establish and earn a living.
Much of your insecurities and emotional instability, my surmise, stems from this lack of foundation.
Once you establish yourself, you’ll feel much better.
If I were you, I would stay put for now despite the unfriendly environ.
I would want to decide on a course of obtaining a useful skill and develop it. A skill that will land you a nice job. And one that is good paying, one that can support yourself and a family. Why? Because a Russian girl will expect that of you. That will all depend on what your interests, affinities are.
For now you have access to the internet which is a great access to the world without having to travel much. The knowledge is there and it is tremendous. I encourage you to explore and decide on your employable skill that you will want to develop. Then go for it and work on it like a madman like your survival depends on it because in a way, your sanity does. Its your way of improving on life and a way to a higher station in life. Education is the way. Now, if you like to read that’s even better. Because, one can certainly educate oneself without the high cost of a college education these days.
Good luck.
-M
Haven’t most women on here been accepting of this website? I thought most women such as Hazel Catherine, me etc had no problem with it.
You and Catherine seem okay.
I check this website everyday and I definitely find comfort in it as it is one of the few sites that I feel shares my values. I’ve never understood the basis behind flaming or screaming at someone via the internet. Clearly I don’t hangout with women like that in the real world.
To Gillian, Westerngirl, Hazel, Catherine and to any other of you wonderful True Ladies out there..
You have my sincere gratitude and appreciation for being part of this community.
I hope I can continue to provide all of you with interesting perspectives as I hope you do for all of us as well.
That’s a very moving personal story Mick.. Thanks for sharing that.
Awww! Thanks, RW! What a very sweet message! We love you too–and your website! I agree with Gillian–this is a very inspirational website for me personally and I check it almost daily!
–Love–
Anna M.
Coming from former Soviet Union, I can assure you that abortion is still rampant in Russia. It is not just poor women that abort their children. Educated women also use abortion as a form of contraception. You cannot blame them given how little they earn and how irresponsible some of the men are. There are many single mothers. The birth rates are much lower than in the US and Western Europe. There are many vulnerable orphans who are used by Westerners, in the pedophile porn most children are Russian.
And if men want women to be feminine, they better become masculine again. They can start by supporting women financially and protecting them.
No, no. A degree would certainly boost your credentials. But I don’t believe it is necessary. The certification process takes about 4 to 6 months. And in some instances, if you contact some universities directly they may even forgo that requirement.
Perhaps, the elegant solution here is to get a teacher’s certificate and to go and teach English abroad.
1) You get to travel and live as you wish
2) You get housing, albeit moderate, and a salary
3) You get to meet the locals. And perhaps, even run into someone you like.
Unfortunately, most countries require you to have a university degree to allow you to do that….
No, thank you! You’re making me blush.
Some examples of lovable…
Awhile ago, I was seeing a cute Russian blond. Perfect body, porcelain skin, button nose. Although it was Spring, the weather was still frigid and I had a nice thick jacket on to keep comfortable and from freezing. And at one point, one evening as we were parting, she offered to wear some short shorts to our next meeting so that I would be impressed. I said no, don’t bother, it’s too cold.
So what is love, but apart of which it is to make sacrifice. And she was willing to go through that, wearing something to impress a man even though the cold was biting. Why would a Russian women do this? Because they know that simple psychological truth, that a man falls in love with his eyes..
….and through his stomach…
at another point in our conversation, during dinner, it came up and she had asked me:
“Would you like to try my Sushi?”
When a man hears that, he is liable to get a little excited and his blood pressure raised a measure. I was a little shocked but my senses came to me. Thought I, what kind of Sushi did she have in mind. Then slowly, it dawned on me as I was putting the question in context, that we had been talking about food. Of course, she had meant the Salmon kind…))). To which I replied, trying to hide my grin,:
“Yes, I would love to try your Sushi.”
-M
It’s for visas. It’s now a government requirement in most countries….
That is so funny what you say How can not having children in an over-populated planet with limited resources be considered egoistic? Or in any way more egoistic than a desire to have children? I guess, more important is being able to raise GOOD children, so that they in the future could make this world a better place. And these child-free women are just making their own choices. No child-free person would persuade a woman who wants to have children not to have them. In fact, they are just saving resources for the future generations. For YOUR children maybe. As selfless as can be. Besides, as curious as it might seem, those women who choose not to be mothers would have made far better mothers than some of those who DO HAVE children, for the simple fact that they are responsible enough to realize that they don’t have enough love in them to give to their future children. And that is a already a gift to the unborn children – not having them. It is better than to have children and not take care of them, isn’t it?
Before accusing anyone of their personal choice, just think, how your own personal choices might be affecting others more and in a more negative way.
Marlene,
I’m certain from my experience around pregnant women that the women themselves may not feel that they are beautiful, but I’m 57 years old and don’t remember seeing many pregnant women that didn’t strike me as beautiful.
I think the photo above typifies exactly what I’m saying. That is a wonderful image of a lovely pregnant woman. She is clearly close to term, she looks very in tune with the process of becoming a mother, her disproportionally large belly is adorable to say the least, and the overall impression given is one of love and tenderness. To be honest, pregnancy is sensual to the point of almost being erotic for many men.
I’ve seen the glow of pregnant women before they’ve even told me that they were pregnant. I’ve witnessed other women cooing and fussing around their pregnant friends for as long as I can remember.
So while the physical changes are certainly taxing on the woman during this process, and I do not envy their ability to carry children, you are one the very few people I have ever heard say that a pregnant woman is unattractive.
I am a Russian woman. And I am expressing the view of not only myself (since I am child-free, and could be jealous on the sub-conscious level of some women who have children just because they were strong and brave enough to do it), but also of my female friends who have recently given birth to their children. None of them finds a pregnant woman attractive. And neither do men whom I asked. Come on, what can be attractive about an improportionally large belly and heavy walk of a duck and sullen complexion? Some women do look sweet pregnant, but they are very rare exceptions. Most of them are not attractive. They might fill the others with awe, but beautiful? No way
Please, do not generalize. I am as Russian as can be and I DO not want to. There is quite a lot of women who do not. As for being celebrated – better speak about Turkey. They absoultely worship pregnancy and motherhood. In Russia the attitude is more reserved. Of course, a pregnant woman might get quite a few congratulations, but in most cases women themselves do not make it known to anyone outside their closest circle unless it becomes so visible she is no longer able to conceal it. It might be a superstition. Of course, in Russia no one would ask the pregnant woman if she is going to keep the child unless she is under 18 or above 45 or there is already a child in the family and the family is in a hard financial situation. But there would be no universal celebration.
And, if it such a tragedy in the US and such a joy in Russia, then please tell me why the heck very few families in Russia have 3 children or more? Usually it is one or two. And don’t tell me about money concerns, in the poorest countries they have the highest birthrates just because it is in their tradition to have many kids.
Anna, as I wrote in a reply to a comment above, the financial situation doesn’t always have to do with abortion. It is just not a tradition in Russia to have many kids. One or two is mostly considered enough. And if you have a family with 3 or more kids, in 50% of the cases it would be a family of the lowest stratum: the women there just don’t even care to have an abortion. If a woman in her right mind, in a stable relationship and well-off decides to have three children for example, she will still get some curious and nearly disapproving glances, like: “So many children??? Wow”
In a society where motherhood and pregnancy are really celebrated the number of kids doesn’t matter so long it is big. In Russia the situation is as follows: a childless woman will be secretly pitied, a woman with 1 or 2 children considered the happiest, a woman with 3 kids or more pitied again. A girl might choose to have an abortion if she is not morally ready or she already has a kid and just DOESN’T WANT more. And a practice of giving a child away for adoption absolutely doesn’t exist in Russia. Russian women will be ashamed to do this since they will of course be asked what has happened to the kid they were awaiting. Abortion is more discrete.
I would say it is kind of sad… Of course, regretting having kids would be still sadder, but I guess she just has no other choice but to be happy with what she has…
that is the way i feel, being Russian. And I am not the only one. And my friend who has a child feels that she can do nothing with her life now – she is a bound to her husband who is not treating her the right way
Well, it all depends on the maturity and the sense of responsibility in a man. Some married men live happily on their wives salary who has to work hard to support three persons – herself and two babies – her own and the baby-husband. Some biological fathers however even being married to other women (not a rare case in Russia) go on supporting their other family.
Around the first of this year I read that the average family in Russia has three children and in the US it has dropped to one. That study did not include 1st or 2nd generation immigrants.
I agree that it is not entirely about economic conditions, although that is always a factor.
Overall, European families still consider the value of marriage and children as a part of their cultural heritage. In North American we have nearly lost that sentiment.
You are right that many underdeveloped countries have higher birth rates despite their poverty, but again the economics has little to do with the numbers. In most of those places you might need to have 6 or 7 children to have 1 or 2 reach maturity because of the high infant and juvenile death rate, disease, war and other armed conflicts, ethnic cleansing and much more.
It’s wonderful that you have chosen to wait on becoming a mother, or might decide not to ever, but I don’t think that you speak for all of your Russian sisters.
So much is written about family situations around the world and so many people can travel freely now and the world is becoming less of a mystery to us all. It seems clear that your country maintains a higher regard for traditional family values and that is why so many people follow blogs like this one.
You see things differently and that’s fine.
Yes, but there is always that 1 gilr out of 10 who sincerely prefers to be child-free…
This is a perfect example of one of the many differences between russian and american women my age. There’s nothing to judge or to criticize because we’re just from two different cultures. It just breaks my heart to see a 26 or 27 year old Russian friend terribly criticized by her family if she chooses not to have children at all–or to wait a few years longer. I wish this were rare, but it’s not.
I guess that the charm of pregnant women lies more in the upper, civilized level of human consciousness. That is, the admiration an artist might feel. Or a good christian, because a pregnant woman might remind him of one of the most important symbols of christianity. That is to say, I guess, a man (or a woman, doesn’t matter) might say to himself, looking at a pregnant woman (provided she is really glowing), “She is sweet, isn’t she?”. But not, “Oh my God, I wish she were mine!”.
Other non-pregnant women might be jealous – but to the same extent and for the same reason a concerned child-free bachelor might be jealous when a buddy’s wife has just given a birth to a child or he has gotten his girlfriend pregnant – it is the jealousy for the fruitfulness, the proof of fertility, which deep down surely all beings long for – it is genetic. Really, when a person has a child that proves that he or she is healthy, a real man or woman. But it is not the attention of men the pregnant women allegedly have that other women envy. Because it is other type of attention, attention of respect and maybe admiration, but not the sexual desire. And sexual desire is more important, and that is what pregnant women seldome arouse in men (I can’t say for everybody of course, but that is the way I feel from my Russian female child-free point of view
I guess, a child-free woman, say a good school teacher, who has decided to dedicate herself to education thousands of other children, who makes them better persons, or a scientist, inventing cure for some serious illness, or just a person who prefers to live her own life not disturbing others is not worse than some woman who has children just because it is normal and she has an instinct and then those children grow up being really egoistic persons not giving a damn for anyone else – is the latter automatically better than the above-mentioned child-free women?
Please, please, do not generalize. You sound like you reduce the women to their womb. If they do not use it – they are crap. Whereas the mere decision not to have children comes rather not from the selfishness, but from the feeling of responsibility towards the unborn, that is, from mere ability to think and be fair with oneself: “Will I be a good mother? Will I be happy about it?” How does this make me or someone else worse than a person who merely follows her instinct?
Here are the pictures of an American woman, Stacey Herald, with a rare genetic disorder, who chose to have as many kids as possible despite the doctors’ warnings. Is that unselfish? Don’t you just want to cry looking at those poor babies?
http://radulova.livejournal.com/1808407.html#cutid1
They can start by supporting women financially and protecting them.
That’s only going to happen if the man and woman are married. Otherwise, no dice.
Save the pity Marlene.
Marlene,
To begin with I want to remind you that I am from NA and despite being pretty well traveled, that is where the bulk of my experience comes from. Though I grew up in the rural Midwest, I have lived in cities the likes of LA, Seattle and Vancouver as well. What’s more, I’ve been around the proverbial block a few times and have quite a bit of life experience to draw on. My basic core beliefs haven’t changed at all over the course of my adult life, but it would be fair to say that when I was in my 20s I was more idealistic and outspoken than I am now.
I’ve read through all of your posts, some two or three times just to makes sure that I understood your point.
Okay, so you speak of generalizations but in the case of Stacey Herald, you respond with an example so rare as to nearly defy comparison.
You suggest the nobility of selfless women everywhere (in their early 20s) who are choosing to remain childless after deep introspection and soul searching in the interest of protecting the global good; not wanting to overpopulate the planet. You’ve GOT to be kidding! Talk about a load of crap.
You mention teachers who are so diligent and committed to their calling as to nurture children on to greatness, even though a huge percentage of teachers are men and more importantly VERY FEW of the world’s teachers rise to such lofty ideologies as you credit them with. Even if we considered EVERY teacher on Earth as wonderfully as you would imply, that would still represent a tiny fraction of the adult population and nearly too small to consider in the big picture of this conversation.
If any measurable percentage of young, single women today were “truly” more concerned about the issues of too many children on Earth, whether or not they might be a bad mother, or how important of an impact they could have on children through some other means, it would still leave your point weak, at best. But since this generation of young women affected and afflicted with the indoctrinations and agendas of feminism are motivated more by greed and selfishness than anything else, I call b.s. on most of your arguments.
A trait which is almost a finger print of the feminist agenda is the “all or nothing” mentality. The so called “masses” are wrong for seeing BLACK so someone (socialist/feminist) must show 2 or 3 examples of WHITE. What about the true numbers of majority which make up the 85% that lie somewhere in between?
This blog seems to be a realistic portrayal of a defined segment of the population in a particular region of the world where traditional family values are still appreciated, and the regular followers of this blog are, for the most part, those who seek to stay in touch with that ideology with the possibility of one day taking part in building on those traditional values.
While your perspective is interesting from a point of confirming the truths which spawned the site, the deeper you get in your perspective, the less some might be interested in listening. It is increasingly clearer to me that you are bent on trying to press your point that women should be competitors first, then wives and mothers somewhere further down the line, if at all. How can you be so against the prospect that the species is somewhat reliant on propagation which is entirely reliant on men and women becoming paired up somehow, and the few thousand years of experience which shows us the way to accomplish these things?
Marriage and family “built” the world as we know it today and the rapid decline in every portion of our modern society can be linked almost like clockwork to the decline in the family unit. The strongest growth in every segment of every developed nation on the planet is coming from the areas where strong families are still an important part of their heritage as well as their present culture. The greatest rates of social decline, corruption and increased crime are in the areas where family units are disappearing.
In every culture throughout time there have been individuals who go against the established norms and excel beyond their peers to imagine and create wondrous things, but they are a tiny fraction of the whole. The movers and shakers are always spirited individuals, but just being a spirited individual does NOT make you a mover or a shaker.
The overall majority are followers, not leaders, and that is a great thing. Not everyone is cut out for leadership any more than everyone is cut out for parenting. However, for the lifeline to continue, the majority must be willing to accept their role in the grander scheme of things. It is a mortal imparity as well as a moral one. We can not all live entirely alone.
If you don’t want children, f a n t a s t i c ! But it is you, not I, who reduces women to a mere womb. I see women for all they can be while you are suggesting that their choice is a baby machine or some infinite unknown. Denying the biology which brought you into existence is ignorance and arrogance. Telling ALL women to forsake womanhood in order to compete in the outside workforce to somehow validate their “independence” ignores the instinctive need and underlying desire for “interdependence”.
This is about men as well as women. WE must be committed to the prospect of either helping to build our society or we, by default, become committed to its demise. On this point there is little room in between. If the majority spends years waffling back and forth we will ultimately reach a point of no return, which we are, in fact, teetering on at this very point in time. Statistically, there are regions in the world where significant portions of populations are faltering and other cultures are rising to displace the discrepancy. These trends are leading to huge unrest and based on history that will lead to tremendous upheaval and conflict. Balance is a delicate mistress and we are far beyond the middle of her fulcrum. If you want to talk to me about global realities, let me know when you have a few weeks to discuss it in detail.
For this thread, I think that a few truths exist; most people here are interested in true relationship based on love and family values, most people here are looking for future happiness within the parameters of traditional family design, and most of the people here believe that the women of the FSU are a key to accomplishing these goals.
Accept it or deny it, like it or don’t like it, that’s how I see it. If many of your comments and criticisms sound a quite a bit like feminism and anti family propaganda, it’s because many of us here have heard it all before, a lot.
It would be very hard for me to look at the number of children available for adoption in Russia and buy fully into your statement that “A practice of giving a child away for adoption absolutely doesn’t exist in Russia” and “Russian women will be ashamed to do this”.
For people in NA to adopt internationally, Russia is one of the top “markets” for adoptive children.
I have written some comments here, but it seems the author of the post completely missed my point.
), it doesn’t make any sense to go further with the discussion, but trust me – lots of Russian women will tell you what you want to hear just to get married to the USA. And I guess the abortion rate and the number of abandoned children in Russia proves my point that Russia is not the place where everything is so rosy. And, yes, I just haven’t put it correctly about giving up for adoption: I meant that in Russia women who decide not to keep their baby at the time when it is late to go to abortion just drop teh child at the hospital. Choosing adoptive parents beforehand – that what doesn’t exist here. I guess, because those women who are responsible enough prefer an abortion (they would be ashamed, yes, to give up their baby) and the others just plain don’t care who will take their child, so they abandon it. AS for the vcerage number of children in a Russian family – it is 1,63 child per family – less than two. In the nineties it was less than 1. I guess you have your personal statistics which serves to prove YOUR point.
I am not against family values, or having children, i am just saying that to have or not to have children is a personal choice – and this choice is always selfish since we all rely on OUR needs and desires when we make decisions and that is plain truth. ALL PEOPLE ARE SELFISH – people who have children and who do not have – no difference.
I disagreed with some points(some of them expresed in the comments of the author of the post) – namely: “ALL Russian women want to have children” – not all. (I am Russian, I have always lived in Russia, so I know what I am talking about)
“All mothers are far better than those selfish ‘b.tches’ who don’t have children” (sorry for quoting not word for word – I don’t have access to the comments for some reason). Not ALL mothers are really good persons, and some child-free persons truly are (not all, just the same as those who have children). There are lots of women who got pregnant just to get married (and being married means a status), or just because their friends have babies and they want to be like the rest – and it is quite a huge percenteage. Very unselfish on their part!
I wasn’t speaking for every child-free woman (or man), since I can’t get into the brain of every person, I gave you examples (in Russia 97% of teachers are women, and many of them do not have children which doesn’t make them bad) just to show that there can be some truth other than yours.
If you rely on Russian beauties as the last hope for the traditional family values – that’s your choice, and since you seem to be very proud of your beliefs (to the extent that you call arguments opposing your opinion b.s. – thanks, that is very polite
I would never go saying that people should stop having babies – because that’s none of my business and I am really not against children, on the contrary, I find babies adorable. I just don’t understand why the pro-propagation society are so agressively reacting to the existance of people of other viewpoints? None is coming to your family and suggesting abortion to any of your family members like a Kirby vacuum cleaner.
It seems to me this blog exists just for the sake of itself and only those of the same opinion are welcome and b.s. is called upon the rest.
Thanks, that’s been entertaining.
Marlene,
I’m sorry to hear that you get so upset over comments on this blog. First of all, don’t worry about previous comments not being showed right now. They will with time. As you can see RW_Man just moved to new domain and is still working on moving some part of the old blog to new home ( as software engineer I know how big this work is and we should be patient with blog creator since he is doing all of this on his free time).
Second, your heated reaction to some of the comments shows me that there is a conflict within you. I’m not trying to tell you what is good or bad, having children or not, it is YOUR decision. But the arguments you have presented were at least confusing and not logical from my point of view. Overpopulated planet means stop having children. Really? But putting that aside, I want to talk about emotional connections between people, that feeling of unity within the family, mutual support and respect, understanding and love. Life without all of that is very lonely. It is sad if one doesn’t give themselves a chance to experience that. We all are given an opportunity, but it’s up to us to act on it. It’s our choice to be closer to our parents, it’s our choice to find a mate which we would feel that inner connection with and build a family, it’s our choice to have a CHILD and pass that knowledge down the generation. I can see that need in you, otherwise you wouldn’t give an example with a teacher. But it doesn’t matter how many children teacher educate at school ( which is a wonderful profession by the way). At the end of the day children go home to their families, and their families nurture and raise them. Teacher is not a family. Quantity eliminates quality. If I want to make world a better place, I’ll start with myself and my family. So, it seems to me that fear of being open with someone and fear of being rejected or hurt, make people to adopt loner attitude, when they closed in their shell and no one can come inside. It’s easier to stay alone, then keep searching for a perfect mate match, it’s easier to stay childless, then feel that strong bond and responsibility for another person for the rest of your life. But easy path- is a boring path. Emotionless life – is missed life.
I wish you all the best Marlene, may your life be filled with people, who loves you and you love them back.
Evushka
Thank you very much for your comment, Evushka
. In what you have written there is absolutely no contradiction with what I had said before. And you may even be right about me – there might be a conflict, since I DO LIKE children (not all of them though, some are right unbearable 
, and I think it might be great to have them, but in some better world or in other circumstances. The examples I have given may not be convincing enough, but I wasn’t supporting the idea that everyone should stop having children now, because the planet is overpopulated or for some other reason. I only defended my – or anyone else’s right of choice in what concerns having children – since it is the most personal choice of all, and to me it was quite offending that some people here were eagerly putting badges of “Good/bad”, “Selfish b.tch /good society” member” based on this only fact – whether a woman has children or not, since I know quite a lot of examples of the contrary.
. I never meant to make the discussion so global, purely because I am no child-free activist.
Hope that has added a bit clarity to what I was trying to say. Perhaps it all seemed a bit confusing, but it surely was not only my fault
Being Russian myself I was surprised to discover some “truth”, so I couldn’t but argue with some points, because truth is never one-sided. Well, yes. I am hot-tempered.
Thanks again for getting me right
Marlene, I haven’t really had time to respond to you regarding some of your assertions.. But in the meantime I’d highly recommend that you read my latest post.
http://russianwomentruth.com/2010/07/22/feminism-created-to-destroy-families-and-control-society-part-1/
Thanks for the link. However, it concerns American society mainly. Personally I don’t feel that feminism poses any problem in Russia. Russian women have got the voting right and all the other juridcal rights same as men in 1918, so we are all calm about it. For me feminism is purely equal rights for both sexes and that is what I believe feminism is in its core. It is like with any ideology or religion: starting with the best intentions. I like to dress nicely, I like to be feminine – but that is my choice. I am not tempted to choose a purely male job or whatever. Just if I am fit to do some job like a man or better – then why not do it and receive equal pay for that? It doesn’t mean fighting your physiology or nature in order just to prove that you can do better. Just that simple. I don’t think that I ‘must’ do anything just because I am a woman, or that any man must do anything just because he is a man. (Being physically stronger, though, they might help in carrying heavy bags or something like that – but that is universal, I would help elderly persons or children just the same).
What happens in the USA – I cannot judge
First, congratulations on the new domain GL! Second, I think one of the reasons I like your blog so much is that I don’t encounter this perspective a lot. The approach of the women is refreshing; I think I feel that way because as I read through the contents I often think “that’s how it should be anyhow.” I think while this woman’s friends should celebrate with her instead of panicking, pregnancy to them clearly means something different. I hear stories about husbands filing for divorce since the wife became “boring” after deciding to stay home with their young children; or requesting to “dine out” during pregnancies. This is monstrous, but I think women worry they’ll be considered repulsive during and after pregnancy. I’m just throwing that point out there. Keep up the good work GL.
youmakemesmile,
I’d like to comment on something you’ve said as I think you may have opened up a good perspective to explore regarding perceptions about pregnancy.
It may be that I know of very few such cases as you’ve mentioned but I am always looking for enlightenment.
There are many women who feel as if being pregnant makes them less attractive, but in truth many men find this time in a woman’s life quite the opposite. I’ve often heard men make positive comments about a woman’s looks when pregnant. In fact, as I’ve said before, some men find it down right sexy.
Possibly because most of my friends are pretty normal, middle class, working Christians; they view pregnancy as a wonderful thing. The men in these families are excited about the pending arrival and they respect their wives for what they’ll endure as women becoming mothers. One family, who I saw today, is expecting their forth child in a couple of months. The mother is starting to look forward to the birth to relieve her of being pregnant, the other children are anxious to see whether they will have a brother or a sister, and the dad is regularly telling his wife (and the rest of us) how beautiful she looks right now. Knowing them as I do, I am sure of his sincerity.
I have heard of times when men have left relationships because the girl said she was pregnant. However, from my experience this sort of thing is primarily among very young and generally unmarried couples. I’m sure that some men might leave a marriage because they don’t feel “the spark” any more, but I am equally certain that many women do the same. Remember too, that there was a time when getting pregnant was a ploy that women used to “land” a husband, sometimes even when he wasn’t the real father.
Of the men I’ve associated with over the years, I don’t know any who left because of a pregnancy. My friends have planned, looked forward to or accepted the pregnancies in their lives.
On the other hand, I do know of several marriages that broke up after a pregnancy and/or birth. A huge factor in modern NA pregnancies is the post partum situation, which I lived through first hand. What was once simply referred to as “baby blues” is a very real and very serious condition which effects far more women than we ever knew of previously. It is an insidious condition which can have tragic results on families and can lead to severe depression and in the worst cases even dangerously erratic behavior.
Please know that I am not trying to throw everything back in the lap of women as if to give men a free pass, but once you witness the way post partum develops and how it tears down the new mother, you will be quite moved by its range of power.
As my wife went through the stages of post partum, my step son and I were trying to ease her condition, but we unwillingly became enablers to the condition. With a lot of outside help we were able to pull back the unproductive assistance which we were giving and concentrate on only those things which were considered best for her recovery. Sadly, I sought help too late and her condition worsened to full blown, clinical depression which eventually led to her leaving us when our daughter was just about two years old.
I wonder what course of action can be taken, beyond making every reasonable effort to return to a more respectful and ethically (or spiritually) sound lifestyle, to help the hundreds of thousands of people who don’t see these pitfalls on our current path.
It seems to me that this is all just common sense. As you’ve said about some of the commentary here, “that’s how it should be anyhow”. I wish we could simply remove the divisiveness that brought us to this point, but we can’t. Like so many others, I know in my heart what forces have led us to this and I think by trying to educate as many people as we can to seek out traditional minded mates and live more traditional lives, we have an opportunity to regain some of the stability of our past.
I’m sorry to hear about your situation, Richard. I am a Christian, and I am excited about finding love and then eventually starting a home and a family; but, my point is, while I’m excited about this, I’m concerned that the man I’m with won’t be. I know I should not be worried and troubled about that, but when I hear the experiences of other people–that’s what worries me.
I had a conversation about that with some friends last week and one of them shared how one of her close girlfriends had wanted a child for years, been very excited about it, and then got postpartum depression and was afraid to tell anybody because she didn’t understand her condition. I just hope that when something happens that I don’t understand I won’t be afraid to get help.
I’ll add postpartum to the list of things to be afraid of as a woman
As for your situation, I hope things are better for you and your son, now. It sounds like you were a great husband/ are a great Dad, and your conscience is clear. But it’s still tough.
Hugs,
me
I want to thank you for your kind thoughts. It was a difficult time in the lives of my step-son and myself, and eventually for my young daughter as well. The effects are still with us, of course, because the marriage didn’t last and the guilt and bitterness still haunt my ex.
Even though I don’t see my step-son very often now (he’s 19) I do have primary custody of my 10 year old daughter. Despite the things that my little girl has had to learn to understand, she is well behaved and very bright. I’ve never kept anything from her regarding mommy’s condition, but only shared any information as she asked for it and only at a level which I was confident she could deal with.
If I can offer you a few words of hope, it would be these;
Know yourself spiritually and be firm in your convictions. You have the right to state your beliefs clearly to any man wishing to become your husband and father of your children. If he is of the same views as you are, trust your faith and trust your heart. If he is not of the same views, look elsewhere.
Don’t rush into anything, most of all, marriage. Many of your peers might badger you to ‘get on with it’ once you meet some nice guy, but one reason that so many marriages used to last 40 or 50 years while today’s can barely make it for 5, is because the time people took getting to know each other was much longer. Less surprises means less conflict. People used to date for a couple of years, get engaged for another year or more and then get married. Many of today’s relationships go from first date to finalized divorce in less time than that.
Always remember that self respect can be abandoned but it can not be taken away. Don’t let anyone force you away from your core beliefs.
With regards to something like postpartum psychosis, knowledge is everything. From all that I learned during that time in my family’s life, it was clear that for those people who faced the situation openly (and together) the time line was much shorter and the recovery much easier. (and by the way, most women never go through it at all)
Because it is so closely tied to depression, many of the same symptoms and guidelines exist. First, and probably most importantly, is the ease of denial. We don’t often identify or understand depressive states in ourselves very early, if at all. Trust those who love you. If they see this developing, allow them to assist you in seeking help and then work through it hand in hand.
For my ex, this condition continued to grow until it eventually took over her life. The process covered more than two and a half years and she had already left the home long before someone else convinced her to get help.
I would also suggest that trying your best to avoid any fear of these future events and replace it with knowledge and understanding of the possibilities, can give you the greatest opportunity for successfully avoiding the problems in the first place. Problems are part of life and my ‘handbook’ makes no promise to the contrary, but being prepared and living in faith rather than fear seems easier and more satisfying to me.
Hugs and prayers
Hi Youmakemesmile..
Thanks for the well wishes.. I’m happy that the perspective I offer is refreshing for you and I hope it will be that way with other friends you have as well.
Marlene,
Believe me….pregnant women are beautiful.
It transcends body image, and even how a woman feels about herself. Trust me, a pregnant woman has a beauty that simply shines out like no other.
you may believe it or not, as you will.
Looks like it’s also a tragedy for Modern American men, as the idea of “male abortinion right” shows.
Kisha,
Just to expound upon your statement, I honestly believe that NA men are far more distressed and disappointed in the wave of anti-family thinking than the average NA woman. Morning after pills and easily accessible/low cost abortions (with no questions asked) are so common now as to have less attention from women than a bad cup of coffee or an aspirin for cramps.
And now, the growth of girl on girl kissing raves and open, public experimentation with homosexual overtones under the guise of “just having some fun” has become a calling card for leaving men even further from the committed relationships that we all need.
With male contraceptive pills getting some air time in the ultra liberal NA media, the big pharmaceutical companies have found men to be conspicuously disinterested. As usual, men resit change and the average NA male is saying, “Why would I want those?”
Men have NO say in abortions and they won’t in the future. A man who fights for the right of life for his own unborn offspring is told that “it is not up to him” or that it simply “isn’t his problem”. Believe me I KNOW this is true. I have been active in the right of life for births to unmarried couples through organizations like Crisis Pregnancy Center and Family First. Men have NO rights to save an unborn child in the US or Canada, even when they are the father of that fetus.
The real tragedy is that modern, post feminist women DO NOT CARE about filling dumpsters with aborted fetuses. As ugly of an image as that is, it is a simple, unadulterated fact of our modern life. There are no funerals, no family mourning, nothing. It is considered ‘medical waste’ and treated accordingly under the laws of the land.
To me the tragedy is that anyone could ever view an unborn child as having no consequence, what-so-ever. It horrifies me that anyone, especially a woman, could treat the gift of generating human life within their own body as a disease to be treated equally with smashing an insect under their foot. Through the organizations mentioned above, I have seen young, post abortion girls, dealing with the terrible realization of their choice once they’ve recovered from the procedure. The emotional strain is almost unbearable for many of them. The images of watching the counselors trying to calm some of these girls has tormented my thoughts for a very long time.
With that said, I see women bragging about how ‘easy’ an abortion is compared to ‘being saddled with a child’ or more often ‘another child’ and it makes me want to puke.
The direction of Godlessness and disregard for life in NA now has me deeply considering a different country for a place to raise my daughter.
Richard,
As my American friend noted once women and espessially men seem to forget that sex leads to pregnancy.
That simple fact seems to be core of all problems with unwanted pregnancies.
I’m actually a bit surprised at NA males reaction on male pills, because women have been doing it for a few decades and frankly speaking it would be stupid to think any of them benefit women’s health. So I don’t understand why men are reluctant to do the same?
As far as I know an unborn child hasn’t got any rights legally. I don’t know a country where this rights are recognized…Just because it is a part of a woman’s body. As simple as that.
Actually women pay the price for abortions which includes : higher breast cancer risks, abdominal bleeding which may result in death, futher pregnancies complications, different inflamation processes in reproductive organs.
You are saying that young girls find it hard to deal with choices they once made, why do you think older women are different? I obviously don’t know much about AW as a lot, but being a woman myself I don’t think that this choice is so easy to make. A woman who discovers herself pregnant and it’s not planed in most cases is just scared. And she just cannot or doesn’t want to make this choice. And she always balances between the two and it’s where a man should take his say and and make it clear that he wants to take responsibility for his unborn baby. You can hardly blame a woman for it solely than the baby’s father has already “killed” the baby in his head. Do these men mourn over them? Do they feel guilty they had to put their partner through this procedure?
If women were so cruel to their children there would be no single mothers who had children without a man. Maybe there no women like that in NA, but I doubt it.
About teenage pregnancies…have you seen this film called “Juno”? do you think it’s better to give your child out for adoption?
I think if we were honest America culture is not realy a friendly place for people who believe in commited relationships let alone people that believe in being honest workers. A man or woman no doubt will find it hard. A nineteen year old woman would probably find it hard to find college guys or guys in thier twenties that want to work on a relationship (for example). But the same is true for young guys too. I remember Richard talking about a nineteen year old that dated him (she probably would probably testify to the above). I am not crazy on abortion and do not think any woman with a level head would think it is great or that is not at all harmless (it is harmful). It shows how we disdain the unborn, or even babies close to thier time to being born (partial birth abortion)and even infants. Of course this goes on outside America but in different ways. China enforces the one child poilicy and it is not a pretty picture to uphold that policy (for example). I do not even know if China has tried to mention the idea of not getting married and just plugging yourself into society by working, contributing and gaining knowlege, etc. While this may not be realistic for alot of people especialy for men the question would be if it would have caused less stress then the one child policy.
Sadly I must agree with you, that American culture is no longer a place for committed relationships and honest workers. The only people here who still maintain the core values of generations long past are now outcasts in their own land. In North America the sanctity of marriage and family has become little more than a punch line for drunken businessmen and over the hill mommy-whores. What was once a nation of freedom and opportunity has been turned into a bastion for the most indignant, self serving, welfare minded dregs of society anxiously awaiting their turn in line to take something which others have paid for in time, effort or blood. We in NA who desperately try to cling to any ray of light are forced into the shadows of misusers, abusers and thieves. Honesty is ridiculed and penalized while cheaters and liars flourish in the lime light to the accolades of ignorant masses.
Kisha,
It seems to me that you are taking some offense to what I said, but I feel you have greatly misunderstood my points.
As much as we might like to joke about not knowing how people keep getting pregnant, I think the reality is we all know far too early in life how the reproductive process works. One of my favorite old quips was that an ordinary penny is the most effective form of birth control ever devised. By simply placing the penny firmly against the inner side of your right knee and holding it there tightly with pressure from your left knee, it is almost impossible to become pregnant.
In my opinion, it has been entirely because of the overt, anti male, feminist agenda that NA women have “chosen” every conceivable form of birth control available through the medical community over simply not acting like a pack of $20 whores. The ‘liberated woman’ can have as much unsafe sex as she wants with as many men as she wants and when all of that ‘freedom’ invariably leaves some of them with child, they just go to a clinic and have the unborn life sucked from their womb with quick snip-snip and a vacuum tube.
There is no question that all of the pharmaceutical birth control options on the market are potentially detrimental to a woman’s health, and you are right to think it would be stupid to assume differently. But I don’t see anything in my previous post that suggests I disagree with that view. I believe that all birth control drugs are dangerous and for the most part put all women at a higher risk for cancer or other health concerns. So, understanding this point, why do you think men are so highly disinterested in taking some new, almost certainly toxic drug along with the women? Considering how most men treat health concerns, and how men in the past have left so much of this burden on women, it seems perfectly logical that those same men would not be willing to take the same risk as women have for so long.
“You are saying that young girls find it hard to deal with choices they once made, why do you think older women are different?”
To the best of my knowledge, I NEVER said that “older women are different” OR that “this choice is so easy to make”. ALL women that we’ve dealt with at the centers where I’ve helped out are facing serious, sometimes terrifying choices, and unfortunately when we see them it is because they were facing these choices alone. It is heart wrenching to watch women show up afraid that they have no choices at all and they are scared, mentally exhausted and sometimes suicidal. The only reason for the way I worded my statement “young, post abortion girls” is because about 80% of them are under 21 years of age, with the majority between 14 and 19. It is a very hard thing to watch and it is happening every, single day in our area. But we have also counseled women in their 40s and 50s about abortions they had decades ago. The reality still haunts many women and we can only guess that the percentage of women in this group are only a tiny fraction of those suffering through it. Most women learn how to live with the pain they feel over terminating a life, or lives, when they were younger.
Our centers deal with adoption as the second choice after keeping their child. Proper adoptions, when handled in a responsible manner are a much better choice than killing an innocent, unborn person. There are often long ranging effects on those mothers as well. It is a natural thing for nearly all women to attach themselves to the child whether it was a planned pregnancy or not. The pregnancy itself is designed in no small part (I believe) to prepare the woman for being ‘that’ child’s mother. The bond is physical, emotional and generally spiritual. Adoptive moms have chosen separate lives over ending a life. How can that be an easy choice, either way?
With regards to women being ‘cruel’ and the single mothers of our world, I have long said that single moms are among the strongest people on Earth. Now that I have spent eight years as a full time single dad, I am even more amazed at how some women handle 2, 3 or 4 kids all by themselves. But I never let that admiration of some women cloud the reality of many others who crank out fatherless children to take advantage of NA welfare systems, ex husbands and any other hand out available. I believe that most women face motherhood with the best of intentions, but like birth control pills and abortions, many of them see children as a necessary burden rather than a loving regeneration of the family bloodline.
Please remember that in any of these situations; it is usually not the majority of any one demographic which solidifies the problem. It is, however, quite often that the apathetic view others hold toward it all which allows it to snowball into a crisis. We have a very clear abortion crisis in the world today. The lack of moral obligation to creating life is completely out of control. We were not designed to build an entire industry out of the wholesale slaughter of unborn humans, yet that is exactly what we’ve done.
“As far as I know an unborn child hasn’t got any rights legally. I don’t know a country where this (these) rights are recognized”
You are correct in stating that unborn children have no (or very few) rights. Almost nowhere on the planet are any rights of any unborn fetuses recognized. That is exactly the level of immorality which makes me want to puke. Every time I hear such a suggestion from anyone who feels so cold and inhuman as that, I am torn between locking them up so they can’t be around normal people, or having them exterminated in an equally cruel and degrading way as an abortion.
As far as, “Just because it is a part of a woman’s body. As simple as that.” It most definitely is NOT as simple as that. I think that it is so arrogant and very ultra feminist to say such a thing as to defy rational response. TWO people created that life, and TWO people are responsible for it. Whether or not they are mature enough to carry such responsibility is clearly the problem.
Men who spend their lives thinking that they can screw anyone with a pulse and take NO responsibility for whatever happens should have their d*+<s cut off and stitched to their forehead to show the world how useless they are. And women who share that same self indulgent, ‘f*+< any guy who says yes’ mentality should be treated to some equally pleasant surgical procedure. I have NO patience for such shallow, self centered morons.
Life is a series of actions and consequences. If a person is too ignorant or too arrogant to own the consequences of their actions, they shouldn’t be allowed to act in the first place. Our world has degraded to the point that every time someone is asked to take ownership of something they have done, society jumps in and coddles them through their whimpering, woe-is-me, entitlement minded stupor. It is sickening to see adults with less ability to act responsibly than a bunch of school children.
Nah Richard, I was not offened at all.
Will reply properly later.
Hi Kisha,
Once again I am glad you pointed out the male role in the sad case of unwanted pregnancies. In North Carolina law enforcement authorities are relentless in tracking down deadbeat dads, and the courts are firm in the child support they demand from them. Not surprisingly, counselors at crisis centers tell me that unmarried pregnant women are pressured by their sexual partners to have abortions more often than not.
When in the market one early morning recently, I struck up a conversation with a young man behind me who was purchasing a large can of beer. I asked if he always started drinking so early in the morning, and he replied that he did but always stopped at four for the entire day. He remarked that he couldn’t “make” his $550.00 monthly child support payments if he indulged anymore. Like they say, it take two to tango and there’s two to blame in all cases.
This is entirely off topic, Kisha, but could you tell me if there is a huge distinction between a college degree and a university degree in your country? Here in the States many highly selective, prestigious colleges exist and a degree from many of them is coveted as much or more than one from an institution that offers graduate programs and is classified as a university as a result.
Hi Sam in fact there is.
College is not an institution of higher education. They were created in soviet times and supplied workers for factories and etc. A college graduate can be a mechanic, a chef, a nurse, or an accountant (this one was recently moved to the level of university) and so on.
Univesity degrees also rate differently. There are: distance courses, evening courses and day ones. Obviously the day course which is rated the highest.
Hope it helps.
Thanks, Kisha, for clarifying a confusing distinction for me. I was completely unaware that there was any difference between day and evening courses as well.
Richard,
I was not just talking about the knowing about the process of reproduction as such. But also the responsibility this knowledge should bring.
“So, understanding this point, why do you think men are so highly disinterested in taking some new, almost certainly toxic drug along with the women? Considering how most men treat health concerns, and how men in the past have left so much of this burden on women, it seems perfectly logical that those same men would not be willing to take the same risk as women have for so long.” – noooo I think it’s perfectly logical to try to avoid responsibility connected with reproduction and birth controle on men side, but at the same time I think it’s really cheeky and unfair. It makes it quite clear that women don’t want to have children from such men. Hence the abortion.
You said “I see women bragging about how ‘easy’ an abortion is” and in the clause above you said how difficult it was psychologically for post-abortion girls. So I thought it would be reasonable to ask you what what changes in the abortion from “girls” to “women”.
Now to the rights of unborn babies. “It hasn’t got any legal rights” I said. And it was a reply to yours “I have been active in the right of life for births to unmarried couples through organizations like Crisis Pregnancy Center and Family First”. Please note that I said legally, I was wondering how can you defend some right which is not legally recognized. So it just sounded a bit like oxymoron to me. If you think that a logical concluson is immoral…well. I prefer to stay emotianally detached when I’m talking about something abstract. Helps me to avoid ad hominem argument which you seem to fall for a lot…oh well.
And as much as you want to lock me(or anyone else)up please bear in mind that you may get in a serious troule just by tryin’ to do that.
Again from the legal point of view men and women only could have equal rights for their babies before birth if the babies were carried to term by some artificial womb which would be physically independant from both parents and had no rights of its own.
But the current situation is that it developes in a woman’s body and granting it all the rights of a human being will be an impairment of rights of another human it’s dependant of.
Though with one thing I agree, that both people should be responsible for it. And a male’s responsibility is to convince his mate that he will give her/and her baby protection and support.
And to reduce abortion statistics society shouln’t ban women from getting it but to improve the situation where they wouldn’t have to do it. And that depends on men as well.
Kisha,
It now seems that we are debating much of what we agree on.
I thought I was clearly kidding about “knowing” where babies come from, as I was under the same impression from your comment, “women and especially men seem to forget that sex leads to pregnancy”. If it was a serious comment on sex leading to pregnancy, I apologize for my assumption that it was said in jest. Growing up on a farm, I was well aware of the connection between cows ‘riding’ each other and new calves showing up even before I knew that people did the same thing. Farm kids never wonder about sex leading to pregnancy.
I also thought my feelings were clear regarding men avoiding birth control options. You are right; it is ‘really cheeky and unfair’. So does that mean that the average woman should say, “If most men are irresponsible jackasses, then I should be, too”? I have to say, that is a pretty bad argument for the feminist who screams how much more intelligent or mature women are than men.
I think that ALL birth control drugs are dangerous. It is not physiologically natural to chemically alter our reproductive system’s ability to operate in the way it was intended to. Female birth control pills and shots have proven to be a threat to the woman’s overall health and still it is one of the drug companies’ top selling products. The twice annual injections that my ex used before we met has a two page health warning on just the cancer risk, and a few more pages of other possible side effects including increased, severe mood swings, depression, blood clots and heart attacks. With all of that information, my ex was on that drug for almost eight years so that she could keep up her overly active sex life. Although she is only one example, that product is the top selling female birth control method in several parts of the US and Canada as well as many parts of Europe. If so many promiscuous single women are using such a high risk drug just so that they can keep their sex life in full swing, then you are never going to convince me that this is all about the few women who try to be responsible and still end up facing unplanned or unwanted pregnancies, “hence the abortion”. It is entirely about a total disregard for responsibility that women will risk ‘death’ to stay as sexually active as possible, and THAT is a direct result of the feminist agenda which dictated to women that whatever they do is alright, despite any consequences.
I said, “I see women bragging about how ‘easy’ an abortion is” and also ‘how difficult it was psychologically for post-abortion girls’. Both statements are fine as they are not mutually exclusive. The 30-somethings who sit around having midday cocktails, bragging about having ‘another’ abortion are a very different crowd than the distraught young teen age girls who seek counselling and treatment after finding themselves facing an unplanned pregnancy. I don’t even see how those two comments could be clumped together. Also, when I say “how ‘easy’ an abortion is”, I should probably say ‘simple to attain’ as not to be confused with easy to deal with emotionally. I have heard women say ‘easy’ in casual conversation and understood it to mean both easy to get and easy to handle in a physical sense, despite the fact that there have been many stories in our region about abortions that have gone bad up to and including women who’ve died. But, again, the women who put their very lives on the line in order to continue their sexual activity are hardly good examples of responsibility or intellect.
But to more directly answer your question, I think a 14, 15, 16 year old female who succumbs to social pressure to become sexually active and ends up pregnant could easily be classified as a ‘girl’. On the other hand, I think that a 28, 29, 30 year old female who has been consistently using prescription birth control, has had a child or two, or an abortion and still finds all of the risks less important than continuing their open sex life, would qualify as a woman. Surely age, maturity and many other factors should be considerations in defining girls/women or boys/men. Basically, all kidding aside, I consider the age of majority as a guideline for most people only because we need some sort of starting point. On average, below 18 or 19 we have girls and boys and above that we have women and men. Dispute those parameters or not, it is just a basic, socially acceptable guideline.
When speaking of rights of the unborn, I did ‘notice’ and acknowledge that you said ‘legally’ but I also explained my feeling about it. The fact that some liberal high court makes something a ‘law’ does not automatically make it “right”. It is VERY easy for me to defend someone’s rights even if the law has failed to do so. I was very outspoken against apartheid because it violated human rights to the point of genocide. Apartheid WAS the law of the land in South Africa but I think it is pretty hard to say that it was ‘right’ since it was driven out of ‘legal’ existence by world wide pressure. If something is morally wrong, no law of man can change it. In my opinion, killing innocent babies is murder whether it takes place a few weeks after or a few weeks before the birthing process. Just like using drugs to chemically alter the reproductive process, the wholesale slaughter of fetuses goes against our very nature. So even with the feminists ‘winning’ a court battle and getting the ‘right’ to kill as many unborn babies as their body can handle, it is still a moral and deeply emotional issue and the numbers of girls and women who are counselled every year in North America would bear that out.
(fe•tus also foe•tus (f¶“t…s) n., pl. fe•tus•es. 1. The unborn young of a vertebrate having a basic structural resemblance to the adult. 2. In human beings, the unborn young from the end of the eighth week after conception to the moment of birth, as distinguished from the earlier embryo.)
Between six and a half weeks and nine weeks, a human fetus develops arms and legs, hands and feet, fingers and toes, finger prints and eyelashes. Brain functions are processing, mobility and other bodily functions have begun. Suggesting that this is somehow not yet a person is beyond my sense of reason. By every conceivable definition, this is already a living human being.
Your comments, “If you think that a logical conclusion is immoral…well. I prefer to stay emotionally detached when I’m talking about something abstract”, leave me questioning some of the respect I may have previously held for you. In my view, it is somewhat numbing to consider human life as “something abstract”. Would you challenge the morality of entering a hospital nursery and killing any newborns that may have developmental problems or all of the premature ones? After all, they might not all be ‘wanted’ because of the possible challenges they represent. Certainly any of them could be a drain on the public funds. Where does it end?
I sure don’t get the statement, “Helps me to avoid ad hominem (homonym) argument which you seem to fall for a lot…oh well”, but you might try to also avoid getting personal. Whatever you may or may not think I ‘fall for’ it probably isn’t something to do with my understanding of the English language. Feel free to point out any time you think I may have misunderstood anyone’s grammar and I will gladly supply the definitions that I go by.
Of course I take great exception to your point of view regarding the only possible way to give both biological parents equal rights in the life of an unborn child. Your scenario is highly flawed in my opinion because while you are deciding between rights of the mother and father, I prefer to allow “equal rights” to ALL concerned. In fact, if it were in my power to decide, I would automatically give the extra percent of value to the unborn as they have not yet been corrupted by selfishness, greed and other worldly concerns which bias the perspective of both parents. Obviously we are on two entirely different sides of a hot issue which exists throughout the world. I choose God’s law and you choose the laws of man. Oh well.
I’m happy to see that we agree on the issue of who is responsible since that is pretty much at the heart of our debate. I am sickened by both men and women who spend their life pointing at the other over who’s ‘fault’ a pregnancy is. Since I default to my farm grown, animal husbandry background, to the best of my knowledge it still seems to involve both a male and a female to get this ball rolling.
Morality is also a responsibility of adult life.
Richard,
What I was talking about is that eventually sex leads to pregnancy no matter how many precations you take, eventually you ( of course not you but a woman) may get pregnant, so one should never forget it may happen.
I thought (as a woman) contraceptives mostly take place when you get serious with someone. But obviously you know NA women better so I’m not gonna argue about that.
To avoid further insnuations about my morality I think it would be fair to outline my position on the abortion. 1) I wouldn’t do it myself 2) I would never try to force my ideas on someone else. It is a private matter and it’s between man&woman and their conscience. Other people circumstances may be different from mine 3)Sometimes it’s needed for medical reasons.
So much for slaying newborns don’t you think?
But even being on the opposite sides of this debate, as you mentioned, (or even having no respect for your opponent) I don’t see a reason why you find it acceptable to make personal remarks, espessially to be the one who starts it. I will try to keep it civil on hte condition you will =)
Thank you for correcting my grammar mistakes, I actually appreciate it a lot, cause I learn on them, English is not my native language as I suppose you have noticed.
*learn from mistakes. =))
Hello Richard and Kisha,
As a reader with an avid interest in the economic, social and political complexity of our world, once again, I thank you for the excellent and thoughtful comments you make here. I am sure it is a sign of my age, but I am still dumbfounded by the fact that two people half a world away from each other and both citizens of countries that were bitter enemies for decades are able to have an almost real-time discussion about such weighty matters.
In America, at least, a significant percentage of the populace thinks that one who acknowledges the problems we face and wishes to discuss them is somehow lacking in positivity and the old “can do” spirit and enthusiasm. Sadly, ignorance and a ridiculous call to a simplicity that doesn’t exist are common. As we finding out now with worldwide water and energy shortages, religious intolerance and its sister, terrorism, sweeping issues under the rug doesn’t solve them. Hopefully, open discussions, like the ones that occur here, will be helpful to us all.
Sam,
Thank you for your thoughts. I agree that the ability to have this sort of discussion on such a regular basis is a wonder of our age, and also that this is a great beginning to making changes in understanding as well as accepting cultures throughout the world. I am still quite amazed by it all, just like you. I remember having ‘pen pals’ through my school as a boy. Our letters averaged six or seven weeks each way, and along with learning about another culture, it sure helped to build a wonderful postage stamp collection.
Kisha,
I completely agree with you regarding the fact that people ‘should know’ that sex will ultimately lead to pregnancy. Responsible adults not only know it, they make every effort to live within that reality. However, that assumes that ‘most’ adults are responsible when it comes to sex. That is definitely not the case in any area where I have lived.
Contraception is apparently very different here than in your country. Logical minds see the idea in much the same way you’ve describe; mostly for after you get serious with someone. Unfortunately, here in NA it is packaged, promoted and sold as part of an overall lifestyle choice for girls as young as 10 or 12.
My 10 year old daughter is already upset because the school district where we live begins sex education at her grade level with only the ‘world view’ on sexual activity. They promote the use of condoms and birth control pills to the children without even mentioning abstinence to them. My child and her classmates are almost entirely uninterested in anything having to do with sex. Based on discussions with my daughter, only 2 or 3 of the more than 30 girl students her age have even started their periods. For most of them, kissing is still “icky” to use the term I hear most often.
What’s more serious though, is that the school district’s explanation of sexual ‘responsibility’ includes abortion as an available option in which parents do not even have to be notified.
Children can not learn responsible actions from irresponsible adults. The ultra-liberal, post feminist world on this continent believes that everyone should pretty much do as they please and let the consequences fall on whoever happens to catch them. In my country that means the tax payer gets gouged into relative poverty by paying for welfare recipients to have as many abortions as they can handle along with feeding, clothing and educating the children that they decide to keep. Contraception and irresponsible pregnancy are epidemic here because the laws favor incompetent behavior.
Beyond the handful of exceptions which we have both mentioned, I believe; 1)abortion is immoral, 2)using abortion as a form of birth control makes those partaking in it in that way immoral, 3)killing developed fetuses is equal to killing newborns, and 4)there is nothing abstract about human life or at what point that life begins. Those are some of my core beliefs and my opinion about the issue of abortion.
Regarding the type of exceptions we’ve talked about, I pray that I would never have to decide between a woman’s life verses the baby she’s carrying. I know that it would even be a spiritually sound judgment to save the mother first in nearly every case, yet even that scenario could have exceptions as well. But I think that losing the child would almost always be the lesser of two very sad options.
I asked before if I misunderstood the statement you made about me and ‘arguments which I seem to fall for a lot’ which I also see as the first personal remark in our discussion. Again, if it wasn’t meant to be so, my mistake. Your responses usually seem very clear and I don’t try to find any hidden meaning in what people say. Allow me the same latitude, though. If I’m in a discussion or debate about human life and the other person leads me to believe they have a variety of standards for what life is, I have to reassess how much credibility I give them.
In my mind there are people who are so heinous as to deserve a death sentence, but that would only be because they have committed unspeakable atrocities against others. That is why society must take on such a serious responsibility. But to me, for any of us to make decisions regarding life or death of another human being goes far beyond a matter that’s simply between a man and a woman and their personal conscience. It is criminal to me that people can put their own sexual satisfaction ahead of making, then killing unborn children.
So, when I say, “Morality is also a responsibility of adult life” I mean that for all of us and it is not a way of saying that I think you are an immoral person. Sorry if that was how you saw it, because that wasn’t my intent.
Kisha,
As a young engineer and native of Russia, I thought you might be interested in reading about the late Georges Charpak(pronounced Shahr-PUCK):http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/03/science/03charpak.html?hpw
Georges was born in a village in Poland that is now in Ukraine. He led a remarkable life, and he exemplified the finest qualities of a true gentleman. In a world of bad news and misguided people, I offer an example of something radically different. I hope you are as impressed as I was.
Thanks Sam, quite an interesting read, I was also surprised to learned that the Nobel prize in physics this year went to 2 scientists of Russian origin.
Thanks, Kisha. Yes, I was very pleased to read about the success your countrymen have had with graphene. I posted the link to the article I read below, and my comment, of course. It seems that in my old age that I can’t help but write in to newspapers and blogs.
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http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nytimes.com%2F2010%2F10%2F06%2Fscience%2F06nobel.html
11.sam ogilviewilkesboro, north carolinaOctober 5th, 20108:16 amIt’s great to hear about relatively young people doing real work with real materials that will ultimately benefit us all. Russia has consistently nurtured top scientific talent, and all those that played a role in the development of these two men should be justifiably proud. This is exciting news about our most basic element.
Recommended Recommended by 46 Readers Report as Inappropriate
surprised to learn, duh
Listening to the news yesterday I heard a couple of statistics from the recent US census.
First, the number of married adults in the US (52%) is the lowest in 100 years. Interesting.
Next, fully one third of the children born in America last year were born to single moms. Sad, and very scary.
What hope can be found in such depressing numbers? Possibly, if nothing else, it would be that the current trend of our post feminist era is clearly NOT WORKING and we MUST change course if we want to survive.